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Talk:Polymorph
Creature weapons and unarmed strike I'm trying to understand how Polymorph works behind the scenes. If a PC is polymorphed into... say... a troll via Polymorph Self spell... Does he need the Improved Unarmed Strike feat to avoid AOOs from Armed opponents? The Weapon field on the character sheet says "Unarmed," but the troll attacks with creature attacks. So does a polymorphed PC have creature weapons? Chamalscuro 16:21, 22 January 2009 (UTC) *Most of the standard polymorphs have either a creature weapon or an equipped weapon. If you were to polymorph into a form that has neither, then, yes, you would need improved unarmed strike to avoid AoOs from opponents (both armed and unarmed opponents, by the way). In the specific case of a troll, the shape has creature weapons (claws inflicting 1d6 damage). So which forms are truly unarmed? All the polymorph forms normally available to players have a creature or equipped weapon. The forms that do not are "Heurodis", "null human", "mimic", "boy", "girl", "morph earth elemental" (not one of the druid forms), and "boat". There's also "golem automation" that ends up without a weapon because of a bug in polymorph.2da. --The Krit 18:56, 22 January 2009 (UTC) :* So can I extrapolate from the above example of the feat active in the unarmed polymorph form (in the case of a "true" unarmed attack present) - that all automatic feats transfer to all polymorph forms unless they might be limited by certain conditions (as explored earlier in the discussion like the designated creature weapon, race restriction, etc.)? As examples, I am considering feats like Dodge, Mobility and Armor Skin. --Iconclast 21:27, April 22, 2012 (UTC) ::* You do not lose feats because you are polymorphed. All that happens is that some feats become inapplicable. Weapon focus (longsword) only applies when wielding a longsword. If in drow form, then the weapon is a longsword (IIRC), so that feat applies. If in bear form, then the weapon is not a longsword, so that feat does not apply. Similarly, improved unarmed strike only applies when not wielding a weapon. If in bear form, then there is a creature weapon being wielded, so that feat does not apply. If in "boat" form then there is no weapon being wielded so that feat does apply. Dodge applies when not flat-footed. If in bear form and flat-footed, then that feat does not apply. If in bear form and not flat-footed, that feat does apply. What you should be extrapolating is that all feats "transfer" to all polymorph forms. (Although, extrapolating that all feats are retained in all polymorph forms would be more accurate.) --The Krit 23:28, April 22, 2012 (UTC) Polymorphed race and item racial damage / slay properties I question this statement, especially the latter part of it. "Since creatures do not change types, a slaying or bane weapon designed to kill or harm creatures of a specific type affects those creatures even if they are polymorphed. Likewise, a creature polymorphed into the form of a creature of a different type is not subject to slaying and bane effects directed at that type of creature." -- 28 March 2009 *I tested and it is the reverse, slaying and bane are based on the polymorph race rather than the natural race. WhiZard 16:39, September 24, 2009 (UTC) PC Properties / action queue lock-out issue I played with a shifter character for the first time today and crashed into the PC Properties / Polymorph bug that locks the action queue the first time a character polymorphs during a game session (see, for instance, this thread on the old BW forums). I hope my wording isn't too jumbled, but I added a note about the restriction for mounted characters and a note about the bug with a link to the Vault page with the life-saving fix. -MrZork 23:06, February 18, 2011 (UTC) * Sorry about that. (If I was faster, I might have been able to fix that before 1.69 went into lockdown.) The wording doesn't look jumbled, but there is something about it that "feels" like it should be improved. I can't put my finger on exactly what, though. I'll take another look at this later and maybe it will come to me. --The Krit 04:01, February 20, 2011 (UTC) :* No need to apologize; it seems like you came up with smart fix for a pretty annoying bug. Unless you were in charge of writing the polymorph/mount code for 1.69, you are the hero here. I only blame you for being too modest to link to your overrides here in the wiki! :-) -MrZork 02:38, February 21, 2011 (UTC) ::* I was not in charge of it, but I was involved in the beta testing, so it is possible I could have gotten a fix in, similar to how I got revisions to the string library (x3_inc_string) included. If I had known at the time about this symptom, I would have reversed the order in which I worked on those two scripts. (Then again, if the symptom had been known by anyone at the time, maybe changes would have been accepted after the lockdown.) Hindsight is 20/20. Or maybe 20/10 in this case. :) --The Krit 16:17, March 1, 2011 (UTC) Polymorph and spellbooks In response to this addition Polymorphed creatures are unable to cast spells. They may use spell-like abilities and feats that mimic spells, though. Polymorph creatures can use their spellbook through ActionCastSpell...() and ActionUseTalent...() commands while polymorphed. They cannot also use the polymorph assigned spells though (without cheat casting). When a creature uses a spell from a spellbook while polymorphed the number of remaining uses does not decrease. So, for PCs, disabling the spellbook GUI commands is likely to avoid exploits (as a PC would then be able to cast their own spells an unlimited number of times). Standard creatures will not be hindered in their normal spell-casting though, but in fact benefit from an infinite casting routine. WhiZard 02:00, February 22, 2012 (UTC) BAB determination of polymorphs and its dependance on builds and multiclassing Since this has, in so far as I could tell, not yet been discussed in this wiki, I would like to make a start. It's not supposed to be a pro/contra multiclass, character build or gameplay discussion, but merely a clarification on what to consider when creating characters capable of polymorphism (especially shifters and druids). This is what I gathered from the wiki and my own limited experience in this matter: The BAB of the polymorph is, like any BAB, dependant on the class (or classes) of the caster up to character level 20, since the class itself does not change during the polymorph and the BAB is the same for all classes beyond level 20. That being so, in order to maximize the BAB of the polymorph the caster should try and maximize the own BAB up to and including character level 20. This seems to have quite interesting results on the build of a shifter for example: If a shifter is supposed to ultimately have access to all non-bonus wildshape forms (which he would gain at level 17) in order to maximize the BAB of said wildshapes he would have to get 18 levels of a combat class, i.e. fighter (to make use of merging effects) , and a mere 2 levels of druid within the first 20 levels, followed by another 3 levels of druid and 17 levels of shifter after level 20. This seems to be a very strange way of building a shifter, but it would result in a character capable of merging all armor, shields, simple and martial weapons into a polymorph with very high BAB and potentially even additional bonuses onto its BAB depending on the kind of polymorph, plus fighter bonus feats and hit points. Is that correct, or are there other factors to consider? Are the BAB calculations the same for spell/feat polymorphs? Did I misunderstand anything? Comments and constructive criticism are very welcome! Erkyth 10:26, March 18, 2012 (UTC) * You do not maximize BAB with only 18 levels of a combat class; an 18/2 fighter/druid has a base attack of 19, while a 20 fighter has a base attack of 20. (Even if you were going for the 19 base attack, you could go 16/4 fighter/druid.) You are correct, though, that polymorphing has no effect on base attack, so why bring up the question in this context? The base attack guidelines (mentioned in that article) apply to all characters, regardless of the form in which they fight. --The Krit 16:53, March 18, 2012 (UTC) : PS You stated that this is not supposed to be a character build discussion, so I should advise you to stop going into all those character build details. A build having access to something is a character build consideration, not related to clarifying base attack. Whether or not a method of building a shifter is strange is a character build consideration, not related to clarifying base attack. Being able to merge lots of items is a character build consideration, not related to clarifying base attack. Having fighter bonus feats and hit points is a character build consideration, not related to clarifying base attack. Bringing up those details threatens to derail your own discussion from your stated intent. --The Krit 17:34, March 18, 2012 (UTC) :* "Maximize" in this case was referring to the maximum possible BAB given said restriction of having at least 17 levels of shifter. I admit, it could have been clearer. :: I brought up the question in this context because the question was concerning whether or not polymorph does have an impact on BAB and whether a class capable of polymorphism would benefit from being chosen at a late point rather than as soon as possible. As such I reckoned it was polymorph-related. :: The point on the details is of course completely justified, I got carried away there. I apologize. It was originally merely an attempt to justify the relevance of the question, since the relevance of BABs for polymorphing characters has not really been discussed, but as you said it really seems to be a character build consideration. Thanks for the answer though! Erkyth 18:12, March 18, 2012 (UTC) ::* This might be where you started going off-track: "the question was concerning whether or not polymorph does have an impact on BAB". You did not actually ask this; instead you went on to follow-up questions. So I suppose the short answer is that polymorphing has no impact on BAB (which is a reason why base attack is not mentioned in this article and why you could find no discussions about the non-existent impact). --The Krit 19:28, March 18, 2012 (UTC) :::* I thought it could affect BAB. I am referring to the Toolset Default Class value in the racialtypes.2da which is indexed in the polymorph.2da. For example, a shapechanger in classes.2da uses the 3/4 BAB schedule. So I would expect a level 12 barbarian (1 BAB schedule) lycanthrope to lose 3 BAB (12 BAB to 9 BAB) when the polymorph to were form has been completed. No? --Iconclast 21:48, April 22, 2012 (UTC) ::::* Only the race changes when shifting or polymorphing, the classes always stay the same. The monster class shapechanger is designed to give a creature statistics (saves, HP, BAB) similar to what would be expected for a shapechanger. However, there is nothing forcing a shapechanger to have that class. A shapechanger monster could have the undead class, or any other class, the classes are simply selected in the Toolset.WhiZard 22:41, April 22, 2012 (UTC) ::::* Notice the name of that column: "ToolsetDefaultClass". First off, it only applies in the Toolset. Secondly, it is only a default. (Thirdly, it is a class, but we already got that much.) Go into the Toolset and create a new creature (not modify an existing one). The first thing you do is select its race. After that, you get to select its class(es). Guess what class will be pre-selected for you? It can be changed (hence "default", not "required"), but since every creature needs at least one class, something had to be pre-selected. That column makes things easier for the module builder by defaulting creatures to their most likely class. --The Krit 23:37, April 22, 2012 (UTC) :::::* (For both preceding comments...) My observation (and assumption) evolved while trying to analyze the effects of default lycantropy scripts for the 3 default palette entries of Bandit shapechangers and trying to quantify the stats of the were form encountered in-game (and to potentially create some custom versions). They were NOT simply respawns using the palette versions werecat001, wererat001 & werewolf001 as I had originally expected, but as a polymorph variant based on the pre-morphed creature. Subsequently, this led to the merry hunt through 2das to discover how in-game stats were determined (a venture which I am ill-equipped to analyze as a professed non-builder chap). However, WhiZard's explanation impressed me with the fact that feat-based shape effects (i.e. shifter) were identical mechanically to the spell-based effects (i.e. polymorph) except for the shifter-specific values defined for the shapes... somewhat of a surprise to me. And the interpretation (with examples) of the column functions by TK is also most illuminating. Thanks guys for setting me straight yet again. ;) --Iconclast 13:53, May 2, 2012 (UTC) ::::::* By the way, were you interested in knowing the stats for those bandit shapechangers, or were you "just" looking to create articles about them? I kind of skipped over them earlier because I'm lazy and do not yet have a format I like for presenting the polymorphed stats. However, if that is information that people are looking for, I can give those articles a higher priority. --The Krit 00:59, May 16, 2012 (UTC) :::::::* No real rush, TK. We are just trying to figure out how to influence the stats of the polymorph form. Will just changing the level of the pre-morphed form like the bandit (e.g. changing it from ftr 1 to ftr 5) , change the stats for the were form that shows up? (Our group is not all that handy with scripting, but better with the toolset manipulations.) It is the relationship between the two that is of prime interest to us to set up custom versions of these polymorphs. --Iconclast 17:10, May 16, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::* Leveling up after polymorphing will indeed allow for a change the polymorph ability scores, however doing so before the polymorph will always produce the same ability scores. All polymorphing does as far as changes are concerned is override size, race, appearance, and ability scores (also portrait if you want to be technical) for the duration of the polymorph. There is also a locking of the inventory (with the polymorph items equipped) and a temp HP bonus. Nothing else is changed.WhiZard 20:29, May 18, 2012 (UTC) :::::::::* Lemme change the example slightly... so the AB and APR of a level 1 fighter in werewolf form will be the same as a fighter 6 who becomes a werewolf? If that is the case, what is used to determine the werewolf form's AB? Seems pretty strange that a high-level fighter ends up a total wimp that can't hit anything when it shapechanges. But to be more clear... I was looking for an easy way to make tougher bandit werewolves, so apparently just setting the original class higher won't work. :( --Iconclast 23:02, May 18, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::::* APR is based on pre-epic BAB and pre-epic BAB is based on class progressions. Polymorphs do not touch class progressions or even the epic progression. What a polymorph does touch is the ability scores (or just strength, dex, and constitution if scheduled to be overridden). Increasing levels increases both BAB and ability score, so polymorphing would only affect the AB coming from ability, not that coming from BAB. WhiZard 00:18, May 19, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::::* I think that this is not clear from the several polymorph table collums Attack that states BAB + str modifier. This might be confusing and what is this usefull to? In case of wyrmlings: Few wyrmlings have higher dexterity then strenght, in case character has weapon finesse the Attack column does not match. This is true also when character has his own dexterity higher than new str from shape. And in case the character has base str higher than shape it also do not much - makes only confusion. 08:47, May 19, 2012 (UTC) ::::::::::* The standard bandit werewolf has a strength of 15. After polymorphing to werewolf form, the bandit's AB will increase by 2 because the polymorph overrides strength (setting strength to 18), and the bandit's APR will not change (from 1) because polymorphs do not affect classes. If the bandit had 6 fighter levels and still a 15 strength, then after polymorphing to werewolf form, the bandit's AB would increase by 2 because the polymorph overrides strength (setting strength to 18), and the bandit's APR will not change (from 2) because polymorphs do not affect classes. To make tougher bandit werewolves, you could just set the original class higher. --The Krit 16:28, June 12, 2012 (UTC) Hit point changes There really is nothing special going on with the hit point changes. Maximum hit points are affected by changes in constitution, just like any other change in constitution (aside from the claim that it won't kill the creature), and temporary hit points are added on top of current hit points. So nothing really to note in this article. --The Krit (talk) 14:18, February 7, 2013 (UTC) Non-overridden racial ability modifiers while shifted : Any ability score that is not overridden by the new form will be affected by the racial modifiers of the new race, losing any racial modifiers of the old race (but this will not be reflected on the character sheet). '' It appears that some non-overridden racial modifiers of the PC's old (unshifted) race remain when shifted to the new one, even though the shifted race wouldn't have them. I just tested a gnome wiz 1 / druid 5 / shifter 3 with a STR of 8 and a CON of 20 unshifted (those include the gnome modifiers).While shifted into gargoyle form (which does not override STR), the character sheet shows his strength is 10, which would be correct with the gnome penalty removed. However, the combat log (with combat debugging enabled) for both attack and damage rolls show the -1 penalty for strength being used. Similarly, when shifted into black wyrmling shape (which does not override CON), the character sheet showed a CON of 18, which is what it would be without the gnome bonus. However, the combat log showed his fortitude saving throw bonus as it would be for a CON of 20, as with the gnome bonus. - MrZork (talk) 08:10, February 20, 2013 (UTC) * See humanoid shape notes for the drow warrior. The old racial ability modifier persists after the polymorph until that specific ability is overridden or changed. The new racial ability modifier will apply only after that specific ability is overridden or changed. Thus a half-orc can shift into a drow warrior, and would not have the strength bonus from half-orc, but would have the charisma and intelligence penalties. Likewise he would get the dexterity bonus from elf but not the constitution penalty. (Technically only the ability modifiers are not adjusted to the new race, the ability scores are always adjusted to the new race and may be pertinent for checks like balagarn's iron horn). Once intelligence is changed the half-orc penalty to intelligence would no longer apply, and once constitution is changed the elf penalty would apply. However, the polymorph can problematically consider two different races' racial modifiers at the same time. DrakeNight (talk) 15:01, February 20, 2013 (UTC) Leveling Given that it has been confirmed on multiple individual polymorphs that polymorphing can effect the prerequisites of various feats, PrC, etc when levelling (at the cost of making a character illegal), should this be mentioned here either in addition to or in place of the more case-by-case notes that already exist? On a similar note, I couldn't find anything in the Feats, Polymorph, or Ability Score Loss articles covering the fact that if one's abilities change so that they no longer meet the prerequisites after a feat has been acquired, it has no impact on the continued use of such; I would assume Polymorph to be one of the more common ways to cause an attribute to change in a way that renders a feat's ability requirements beyond the current character. Granted, not every player will be concerned about this and some may even infer from the Monk getting and using Cleave regardless of STR and Power Attack that it won't make a difference, but some might get concerned if it's not noted somewhere for them to see. So, how does this sound for this article? When polymorphed, the changed ability scores, racial types, and in some cases bonus feats can result in illegal character development if one attempts a level-up before the polymorph expires. Then, for the Feats article: '''insert a Prerequisites section' :: While prerequisites must be met when selecting general feats or chosen bonus feats, they need not be maintained to continue using the feat after it has been selected. Such scenarios should be rare outside of polymorphing, and if one chooses a feat while polymorphed which he would not have been able to select without being polymorphed, the character will be flagged as illegal. 09:44, June 16, 2013 (UTC) * To take a feat while leveling up you need to naturally meet the criteria and the polymorph feats and stats are not considered. Once the feat is taken it will always apply. The prerequisites are detailed for what is required to take the feat. For example the cleave of Tenser's transformation will not help qualify for great cleave, nor will the strength of dragon shape help qualify for devastating critical. WhiZard (talk) 16:03, June 16, 2013 (UTC) * Regarding not finding anything about prerequisites for choosing a feat not being prerequisites for using a feat, I tend to view that as people reading statements that are not there. It is true that neither the feat nor general feat articles state something like "prerequisites are not required to use a feat". At the same time, both articles do explicitly state that prerequisites must be met to select a feat. Extending those statements from "select" to "use" is an unsupported (and unwarranted) inference by the reader. In general, I do not like catering to every possible inference people make, simply because inferences are so varied. To include statements refuting every possible false inference (or even just those someone had made) could result in those statements forming the bulk of the article, which makes it harder for the people not jumping to conclusions. : That being said, it might be worth noting that feats are never lost (unless solely granted by an equipped item, of course). : Regarding the first proposed addition, I thought there was already a more general statement in the article about that, but I guess not. (It is in the ELC article, though.) Let me put in the line I thought was there (more-or-less a copy from ELC), then we can wee what inadequacies still exist. --The Krit (talk) 21:14, June 16, 2013 (UTC) Determining OnHit DC for Polymorph Attack I'm trying to determine the DC for the OnHit: Fear attack of the slam creature weapon used by the Shapechange: Balor form. If it is determined by the On_monster_hit algorithm, then it should be (HD of the natural character)/3 + 10, which for a Level 40 caster would be 40/3 + 10 or 13 (rounded down/truncated) + 10 for a DC of 23. Is this the correct way to calculate this (i.e. using On Monster Hit)? Does it matter how many caster levels there are in a multiclass character to determine the HD used? TIA for any clarification of how this is supposed to work. --Iconclast (talk) 15:03, August 27, 2014 (UTC) : You have the formula right. The DC is 23 at character level 40 (regardless of class levels). WhiZard (talk) 16:36, August 27, 2014 (UTC) Death on low-HP Polymorph cancellation, CON effects, etc. (Even when properties are retained, they are lost for a split second while polymorphing, which can cause a momentary loss of spell slots, effectively clearing them.) When a polymorph ends, ability scores, race, and items revert back to normal, and any remaining temporary hit points are lost. This has the usual consequences with one exception: the change in constitution (if any) will not kill the creature. Instead, the creature will have a minimum of one hit point when the polymorph ends ... I don't think this tells quite enough of the story (or isn't explicit enough), as it may leave the reader with the impression the constitution changes on polymorph/cancellation are somewhat safe and will not kill the character. I have had a toon with low HP die upon polymorph cancellation a couple of times recently and decided to test it, in case it was a peculiarity of the PW I was playing. It is not. I tested with a simple mod (with an added line to nw_o0_death that prints a message when it runs) and I saw the same thing. As far as I can tell, the temporary un-equipping of CON-boosting items can kill the character. (Associates are unsummoned, effects are removed, nw_o0_death fires, etc.) But, the "1 HP minimum on cancellation" feature is in the mix, too, since the toon is technically alive when the polymorph cancellation is finished, though in a very marginal sense. What actually happens can seem a bit odd to the player, since his low-HP toon dies upon polymorph cancellation, but is then brought back to life with 1 HP, but the "You are dead" GUI panel will still be up, the PC will be prone, and the PC will not be controllable. In my tests, the log had a bizarre note that the death was caused by the skin item (e.g. "Risen Lord Properties killed PC"). Anyway, if anyone else can confirm this, I think it would be useful to clarify the potential issue with unequipping CON gear in the article's note. - MrZork (talk) 19:52, September 11, 2014 (UTC) :I'll look into it, but I am not sure that the note was concerned with unequipping gear (in this case the risen lord skin with constitution bonus added as a merged item property) as being the cause of death, but rather the constitution change from the character having a lower constitution than the risen lord ability override. Your case potentially involves both factors in play, and I am betting the conflict has to do with two different issues going on at once (i.e. the unequipping kills, but removing the override places the HP at 1 or something like that). WhiZard (talk) 21:31, September 11, 2014 (UTC) :: I understand that the latter note referred to changes in the base CON because of the polymorph, rather than CON changes related to item properties. But, the immediately preceding note helpfully points out the issue with lost spells related to the momentary loss of item-property-related spell slot bonuses, but doesn't mention that the same momentary equipment swap may kill the toon because of CON changes. I was just saying that someone reading both notes might not be aware that cancelling a polymorph with merged CON-boosting gear might kill the PC. :: BTW, I agree that both factors are in play in the odd case I described (and I meant to imply that above). I have also tested this with forms that do not override the CON of the shifter (e.g. kobold commando form and Iron golem form (shifter)) and concluded that both CON-overriding forms and non-CON-overriding forms may kill the PC on cancellation. The key factor in determining if cancelling the polymorph will kill the PC seems to be whether CON-boosting gear was merged in the polymorph (and whether the merged gear resulted in enough extra HP in the form that HP would momentarily drop below 1 when the boost from the gear was lost). :: There are also two ways that death seems to occur. The character may die and be left at 0 or some negative HP, per usual. Or, he may die and then be revived into a pseudo-dead state at 1 HP (with an uncontrollable character, the death GUI present, etc.). I think that whether CON is overridden by the form may have something to do with which state results, as you were thinking. - MrZork (talk) 23:10, September 11, 2014 (UTC) I have modified the article to note that the item property merge may have several important side effects. One is the spell slot clearing and another is the possibility of death from momentarily lowered CON. - MrZork (talk) 02:55, September 12, 2014 (UTC) * Any testing with constitution-boosting effects? I'm thinking of this line from the article: "This means a polymorph can be used to prevent a character from dying when resting with low hit points and a constitution buff (such as the ''endurance spell)."'' I forget if someone actually tested that or if it was a theory. Also if the game decides to resolve the polymorph ending before the con boost ending, that could add another variable for the "non-death" happening. --The Krit (talk) 01:10, October 4, 2014 (UTC) :* I think that line means that when you are about to have the constitution buff expire, you shift into a form that has a higher constitution override. Then you let the constitution buff expire (in this case rest), and then unshift. The result is that after unshifting you would have at minimum 1 HP, while if you did not polymorph you would have died. Of course if the polymorph does not have a higher constitution override than your constitution score, you would die when the constitution buff is removed. Only the act of unshifting (and possibly shifting though I haven't tested polymorphing into forms with lower constitution) is what is protected by the 1 HP minimum. I will have to look more into how the effect removal for resting is resolved, to determine if it removes the constitution before the polymorph, from what I remember GetFirstEffect() would get the last effect applied and work towards the earlier effects with GetNextEffect(), in which case the resting strategy would likely not work if the polymorphing comes after the constitution buff. WhiZard (talk) 02:19, October 4, 2014 (UTC) :* I tried applying a constitution buff both before and after the polymorph effect, and either way, the character died when resting from both the polymorph and constitution effect being removed. WhiZard (talk) 02:42, October 4, 2014 (UTC) ::* I just had a run-in with this exact issue while trying to advise a player who had never used polymorph forms before and had sought some guidance in the basics. Well, with all the tips poured out I neglected to mention the most obvious... how the CON readjustment could negatively affect them (should have recommended they use a heal potion before ending it). But what they had done was just try to rest after the battle had concluded... the one that had reduced their HPs so low and *poof*... the toon died during rest, losing substantial XP on the server they were playing. What I am wondering is how the game determines the order of HPs removed as damage occurs. If it would remove those added by virtue of the polymorph's increased CON first, the player would be left with their original HP pool (based on their character base + equipment CON boost) minus any HPs that were removed in excess of the polymorph +CON total that had been exhausted by damage. Then the on-screen, displayed HP tally would be indicating what is still available after the polymorph ends. But it doesn't work that way AFAIK. At least a part (if not all) of what is shown includes the temp HPs. ::: The same thing could happen with an Endurance buff, couldn't it? Suppose a toon buffed by Endurance takes damage down to just a few HPs remaining and then gets dispelled successfully. That SHOULD kill the toon similar to polymorph's CON boost ending unless the damage had been removed in a different order than with the polymorph. So then, respectively, to make the whole mechanics even more complicated, what would be the order of HP removal via damage if a character were to buff Endurance and then polymorph. They would have 3 pools of HPs: character base, endurance buff and polymorph CON increase.--Iconclast (talk) 03:19, October 4, 2014 (UTC) :::* Effectively, the three pools of hit points are character base, constitution bonus/penalty, and temporary hit points. Damage applies to them in the order temporary HP, base HP, constitution HP. The mechanics are actually even simpler than that, but I believe you get the same end results thinking about these pools. Ending a polymorph is a special case that effectively saves one base HP as your constitution reverts back to normal. --The Krit (talk) 04:55, October 4, 2014 (UTC) ::* I looked a little closer. The character in both cases was reduced to one hit point during the polymorph, so either way he should have died from the constitution removal. Damaging the character to have one more hit point than the constitution modifier of the buff, saved him in both orderings. So if you were damaged while you were under endurance, and then polymorphed and took no further damage, then you can rest securely. So the constitution score will always be affect by the removal of the constitution buff before it gets modified by the polymorph removal. WhiZard (talk) 03:51, October 4, 2014 (UTC) Spell Slot Loss Another note related to loss of spell slots due to item unequip during polymorph. The current version notes An irritating loss is the loss of bonus spells, as this will clear the lost slots (this can sometimes be mitigated by first casting a spell, such as eagle's splendor, to boost the relevant spellcasting ability before polymorphing). The loss of bonus slots is an irritating problem. But, Eagle's Splendor is sort of a poor example of mitigation, because of the unfortunate (and also irritating) way NWN deals with spell slots for spontaneous casters. Casting a CHA buff will only be helpful if that buff (along with other non-equipped-item CHA buffs) keeps the PC's extra CHA at the +12 cap. Since Eagle's Splendor can't do that on it's own (even empowered), there is still likely to be slot loss. Probably, the example should be changed to mention Fox's Cunning, Owl's Wisdom, or Owl's Insight, with a note that Eagle's Splendor is typically not as useful. - MrZork (talk) 17:37, September 17, 2017 (UTC) * Sure. Fox's is next in alphabetical order, so I'll switch it to that. Does it need a note for spontaneous casters? One reason I went with "sometimes" is that this did not seem to be the correct place to go into the details of how spell slots are gained and lost. Historical note so future people don't have to look through the history: the blurb in question was adapted from a note (in shapechange) that listed eagle's, fox's, and owl's (insight). I thought that listing one spell was sufficient, particularly with the lead-in "such as". So the poor choice of which spell to list is from me. --The Krit (talk) 18:11, September 17, 2017 (UTC)